Update: Debra Gainey Interview

UPDATE:
I recently had the opportunity to sit down to chat
with Debra Gainey about her situation with the police department in Greer, SC and was appalled by the actions of Officers Stewart and the Greer police department as a whole. Religious discrimination is never okay, as the Greer, South Carolina police department should be well aware, and I think it is safe to say that religious discrimination describes Debra and Tony's encounters with the P.D. to a tee. Fallon

The interview can be viewed at:
http://pagansunited.com/itsapolicething.htm


What happened? (Background)


"My Husband, Tony, and I were on our way home from Wal-mart. While shopping I had begun to experience joint pain (I have Degenerative Joint Disease), so my husband, in a kind gesture, offered to drive the five miles home. Halfway home we were pulled over by the Greer Police. No reason was given for the stop and when I asked, I was told there had been none. My husband had failed to get his driver’s license reinstated five years ago, so when he was asked for his, he handed them his old one. We had documents in
the glove box verifying insurance coverage from the time the car was purchased until the beginning of this year, but we had insurance, the papers were just at home. After the Officers checked our ID’s and found nothing, they then checked the plate on the car. We were told that the plates were the wrong ones. They would not tell us whose they were, only that they belonged on a Chevy. They searched the car and found nothing (although they thought they had found something when they came across a geode in the glove
box), and then called a tow truck to take the car
overnight, even though we only lived three minutes away. My husband was hand cuffed and arrested. I was not arrested, but taken to the jail with my husband, along with our frozen food. At the jail, my husband had to show them how to use their new fingerprinting machine (he is in school majoring in programming). He was released on a signature bond even though he never saw a judge.

The interesting part of this incident happened at the back of our car. Officer Stewart asked us if we had put the bumper stickers on or if the car had come that way. I, of course, told the truth and said I had put them on. The officer wanted to know what they meant so I explained that I was an ordained minister of the Emerald Sanctuary Druidic Church. The conversation continued and then Officer Stewart asked me if my church supported me. I asked him to explain what he
meant by support and he clarified it as meaning
‘spiritually fulfilling’. He then begins witnessing to
me and my husband. As they were putting my husband into the police car, and I was getting the bags of groceries out of the back seat, Officer Stewart came over to me and handed me $40.00 to help get the car out of impound and told me he would be writing the letter (exhibited below). At the police station he continued to witness to me.

They never offered to report our tag as stolen. They left the tag on the car and did not hold it in impound until all proper documents were produced. They had plainly stated that there had not been any reason to have stopped us in the beginning, “but it doesn’t matter, the plates are wrong.”

Granted, my husband should not be driving, and he doesn’t, except this one time when I was in pain and we needed to get home. He was in the process to reinstate his license at the time this occured. We have bought new plates for the car, since our old plates are gone. And, thankfully a family member is the Chief of Police in another location, so we were able to find out who the plates belonged to. " (Debra Gainey)

THE INTERVIEW:


DB: Good morning, Fallon.
FG: Good morning, Debra. How are you?
DB: Sinus headache.
FG: Those are always a joy.

FG: Were you ever given a reason for being pulled
over?
DG: I asked Officer Lozada "Why did you turn on the 'blue lights'?"
His reply was 'That's how I get people to stop."
I then rephrased my question as "Why did you want us to stop?"
His answer was "No reason, but it doesn't matter
because your plate is wrong."
This occured after my husband was in handcuffs, in the patrol car, and as they were placing me in the patrol car with him.

FG: Wow. Has he admitted to that as of yet?
DG: I do not know, but I doubt it as he is claiming he did not know that Officer Stewart was witnessing to me. He says he was in the car with my husband. This is strange since he was going back and forth from our car to the patrol car. Tony (my husband) had not been arrested as yet. Stewart began the conversation about
"faith" with my husband at the back of our car.


FG: Why was your husband arrested?
DG: He is not sure why he was arrested. They did not give me a reason, just told me that I was 'being transported'. My husband assumes it was either for the license or insurance but he is only guessing as he was not told. It is common practice here that you do not have to be told why or have your rights read to you on something like a traffic ticket. He also never saw a
judge to be released.


FG: How long were you held before you were released?
DG: We were at the station about an hour and half to two hours. We were pulled over at 11:15 PM and got home right at 2AM.


FG: What was the mix up with the tags exactly? I read that they belonged to another car, but I'm a little confused about that. Was there a mix up when you guys were sent the tags?
DG: The tags belonged to a Chevy truck. This was all the Officers would tell us. We have also been told that we were negligent in not checking the plate on the car everytime we get in it to be sure it is our plate. As far as we can tell, they were switched by someone who wanted different plates for whatever reason. (A retired officer has told us this happens when someone needs to conceal their identiy for activities such as bank roberies, drug deals, etc.)
The City Attorney is claiming that there is a major
problem in South Carolina with people going and buying plates from vehicles that they know are good when they can't renew their tags. To buy plates here, you have to prove ownership, payment of taxes, have insurance and a valid ID. To replace lost/stolen tags you have to have all that plus your birth certificate. (I guess there must be a lot of identity theft too.) But it
would seem easier just to renew your plates than go through all this. So, the short of it is... our tags were stolen. We did not know it until that night. We have bought new tags (and still have the one that was on the car that night too).

FG: Ok, I can understand that. My mother had her tags stolen when I was a kid.

FG: Where there any other officers involved in the
stop?
DG: He (Lozada) called for back-up and they arrived about the same time as the tow truck, right before we both were taken to the police station. (I was NOT arrested but was detained and transported to the Police Station.) One of the cars that responded as back up took us to the station. My husband was not placed in Lozada's car as he claimed. He says that he was unaware of Stewarts conversation because he was in
his patrol car with my husband in the back. (Tony was never in Lozada's car.)


FG:So, you and your husband were pulled over and
Officer Stewart started a conversation about faith
with your husband. When did he start witnessing to you?
DG: As soon as we reached the trunk of the car (which was his suggestion). He asked us if the bumper stickers came on the car or if we put them on.

FG: I've been witnessed too, so I can imagine what was being said. But, for those that may not know what you mean when you say witnessing, could you give me an idea of what he was saying to ya'll?

DG: He told us that he is a Baptist minister (which
his church was not aware of) and that he had been put in our path to tell us we are not doing what God wants us to do. He asked if our church supported us. I asked him to clarify what he meant by support and he said "spiritually fulfilling". We told him yes, most certainly.

FG:Was he asked to stop?
DG:I have usually found that when someone is informed that you are the minister at your church they realize this means to stop. But to directly say stop, no. After all, he is a Police Officer that has detained you.
FG: I can understand that.

DG: One of the things I have recently learned about SC is that the volunteer/reserve officers here have the SAME privilages and authority has a regular Officer. They just don't get paid. The uniform is the same, the badge, the gun, etc.


FG: Was anyone else involved in the witnessing other than Officer Stewart?
DG: He was the only one who spoke...other officers at the scene and at the station were present when he was witnessing to us, but no one involved themselves except to listen.

FG: I understand he wrote you a letter later on. What was his reason for this?
DG: I guess because he had told me he was and he wanted to make sure we 'heard' his message and knew exactly where to come to repent. "I mentioned to Deborah that I would be sending something that I wanted you to respond to." the letter says.

FG: Has the PD done anything about the letter?
DG: Not that we are aware of.

FG: When was the police station first contacted about his actions?
DG: This happened on June 10th, I first spoke with
Chief Reynolds on June 20th by phone and then email, sending the letter to him. I followed up with a certified/return receipt on June 24th, to be able to verify our contact about this. We also have the voicemail recording from him when he first received the email from me. The letter was to place in writing our concern about the situation.
DG: OK...excuse me...I am going back and forth between this screen and the word documents...the first letter was sent June 21st with a second letter on the 22nd after receiving a phone call from Lt. Pressley that everything had been taken care of. He could not tell me what had been done since it was "police affairs" and the public was "not allowed" to know.

FG: Has the police department been any help?
DG: They are still investigating why the stop was
made. They are now saying our car drew attention
because of a broken window. We have no broken
windows. We have one window that is either up or down as the motor for it burned up, and one that the driver can put down but not up (can only be put up at the button on the door). Niether are something that you see. And both of these windows were up that night. DG: They had a two hour interview with us about the end of June. They went over the car with us to make sure all lights and signals worked to rule that out as
a reason for the stop. The interview also included
them wanting to know where and when I shopped, who and where family members lived in Greer, where my son works (he was with us as a witness for the interview). We gladly answered all of their questions about the stop but refused to answer these questions about our personal life and family. We were told we needed to
write a detailed statement about that night and get it to Lt. Pressley.
DG: We have not done this as the interview should have generated our statements, per what we were told when we agreed to the interview. At the interview we were also told that Stewart was claiming I started the conversation by saying "Why is God doing this to us?"


FG: What has happened with the case thus far? (Has Officer Stewart been relieved of duty? Was an apology ever given?)
DG: The voluntieer program has been discontinued, because of the costs of the program they say. Officer Lozada's employement with Greer PD ended on June 28th (same day we had the interview). The evidence that we have requested has not been supplied. Only one item
has been released from the 6 that we requested. Since the ACLU announced their involvment, the city attorney has offered to let us 'off' with the minimun fines and fees ($1000), if we plead guilty and drop everything. No apology has been made.


FG: Whats next? Are you going to take the department to court for religious discrimination or do you just want an apology and a close to the entire ordeal?
DG: We have asked from the beginning for an apology, not just to us, but to all the others that he (Stewart) has done this to for the last 14 years. We have also asked for a training program to be initiated for all city employees, so that they will have an understanding of what is and is not allowed while at work or in any sort of official rellationship with a citizen. (We recently had a thing about a calendar that was published by a city department that was Christian and quoting scripture).
DG: It looks like Greer will force us to go as far as
needed to accomplish this. If it takes a lawsuit to
establish that these sort of actions are not American, then I guess that is what they will force us to do. I don't suppose I will ever understand why some people will be so willfull and stubborn when it is so clearly wrong.

DG: My husband just spoke with the ACLU attorney and I wanted you to be the first to know what happened.
DG: As I told you, the city has offered to cut the
fines and fees in half. The ACLU has made a return offer. They've asked that we not discuss this publicly as of yet. We are waiting to hear back from the city attorney.
FG: Oh, good luck!

FG: What can the Pagan community can do to assist you and Tony?
DG: Please help us keep the facts straight and in the minds of those who feel it can't or won't happen to them. It can and at the rate things are going, will. If we allow our rights to be stripped away because of "that's the way we do it" or "it is common practice," then the fight that our ancestors have fought was in vain. Everyone has had someone who has fought for freedom somewhere at sometime. That is why we ALL are
here in America. And if we don't stand up for
ourselves, then who will? I can't think of another
country that will come here to help us win back our rights, so it is up to us to do it.

FG: Very well said.
DG: Thanks... I want to be able to go to the grocery store without having to look over my shoulder.) We don't intend on dishonoring our ancestors (my 7th great grandfather was a minute man directly under Washington's command) and the Deities, by not taking a stand. At PPD last year, I was honored with having written the closing ritual. It was called On Common
Ground and was to unify the community and encourge commitment from the communty. As a part of it, everyone was to silently pledge to their deity what they were willing to do. I guess this is what they want my husband and myself to do.

FG: Thanks for taking the time to talk with me this
morning.
DG: Thank you for taking an interest in the case.

The Letter From Officer Stewart:

"Tony & Deborah
I mentioned to Deborah that I would be sending
something that I wanted you to respond to. Although the timing and setting may seem unlikely, our meeting on Friday Night June 10th was actually destined to happen. Let me explain: As a law enforcement officer, I am a reserve, meaning that I am an unpaid volunteer.
The reason I have volunteered for the last 14 years is so that I can be at the places where God would have me to be and at the right time. You see, I have been a victim myself. I know poverty, alcohol and drug abuse and many of the other things my brothers and sisters know first hand. I felt your pain!

I can feel the pain of others when luck seems to
always be bad. I call it being a victim because, one piece of bad luck leads to another and soon, finding your way back to a place of peace is all but
impossible. Driving without the correct license or
insurance becomes a necessity. Then a cop steps in and enforces man's law and the hopeless situation only gets worse.

Sometimes, it feels like there is no answer. But there is hope. I know, because I fell further down than almost anyone I have ever met. And, slowly, I was able to come back. But, it was not without a lot of help from others. All along my journey, there were people that God sent to reach out to me and speak his wisdom to me. Often, I pushed them away. And other times, I made excuses for not responding to them.

My own free will became my worst enemy and
stubbornness and pride also worked against me. Thank God that people were continually sent to be in my crossroads. Last Friday night I was sent to be in your crossroads. You see, my passion is not to wear a badge and enforce man's law. Instead it's to be where I need to be for people like you. Yes, I do enforce Caesar's law, but I care far more about following Jesus Christ who came to make a way to him through faith and not by works or laws.

In your case, Jesus has reached out to you through me to say that he wants your attention. Chances are that he sent this intercession after hearing the prayers of someone for your welfare. Maybe it was your prayers, or maybe it was a loved one or friend who cares for you. But he did send intercession. Now, you must respond without delay and without excuses.

I see from your bumper stickers and from your
testimony that are a druid priest. I am not familiar
with the Druids enough to make conversation. But I am ordained in the Baptist church. And for whatever reason, God is calling you to listen to words from the Baptists. This is clear! If you deny this, then you are pushing away the hand of God and that would not be wise. Too many events were manipulated by God to bring us together to be a coincidence. Actually, I only police every 2nd Friday night, so just being on duty was rare.

You must respond to the words he wants you to hear. And you must be patient and faithful. It may tales weeks or month of obedience to learn the steps that it will take to get you back on the road to prosperity. One visit, a few prayers and an occasional opening of his Bible will not be enough. You must be prepared to make some serious changes and do so now! You may not
get another intercession. Who knows? But you must admit that you've been contacted by God! And you must respond. What's your next step?

I lead a bible study class on Sunday mornings at Mt. Lebanon Baptist church. It's a unique class where jeans and t-shirts are normal and many of those who attend are in some sort of crisis or toting burdens of some kind. There is no pressure to speak, pray or answer questions. God does bless us with miracles and wisdom. And there is no pressure to attend worship across the street afterwards. You are free to attend worship afterwards when and if you are ready. The
class is very small and is the next thing God wants you to do. He will speak his wisdom to you while you are there. And be prepared to come more than once. To get there: From HWY 29 in Greer, Go up HWY 14 north about 4-5 miles to Mt. Lebanon Church road on your right (look for our church sign). Turn right and go to the 4-way stop and go straight thru. We are on your left across the street from the church in the Gymnasium. 9:15 Am-10:15 AM

(*Addresses of Officer Stewart Removed) Your brother -
Tony Stewart ,_ "

Breaking News:

The City of Greer have officially apologized to the
Gainey's. The following is an excerpt from the letter of apology the Gainey's received in September of 2005:

"It is the policy of the Police Department that its
policing be unbiased and that officers respect
individuals' religious beliefs and right to free
expression. I understand that you were offended by the religious comments made by the reserve officer and that you felt intimidated by the uniformed reserve officer and were, therefore, reluctant to speak up. Whether the reserve officer was well-intended or not, I express to you my sincere regrets. I also regret that you subsequently received a religious letter sent
to you by the volunteer reserve officer while
off-duty. You have my assurance that we have brought the Department's policy to the attention of all of our Police officers to remind them of the importance of respecting the right of citizens to their own religious beliefs and that an individual's religious beliefs should in no way influence an officer's conduct. We have in the past, and will continue, to insist on unbiased policing by our law enforcement personnel."



******************************************

From: Pagan Unity Campaign South Eastern Region and Pagans United
Date: August 18, 2005
Subject: It's a Police Thing?
Contact: Fallon Glenn (tennessee_puc@yahoo.com) , Laura Wandrie (lauranewage@aol.com)

On June 10, 2005 Tony and Debra Gainey saw blue lights in their rear-view mirror and pulled over for what they thought was a routine traffic stop. They were asked to get out of the car by the Officers and were taken around to the back of their car. Officer Stewart then pointed out the bumper stickers (It's a Druid Thing amongst other Pagan related stickers) and asked if they had come on the car or if they had been placed there. Debra Gainey told the truth and was rewarded by being forced to listen to over 2 hours of witnessing by Officer Stewart both on the roadside and then at the jailhouse.

Days after the stop. Debra Gainey was surprised to see a letter from Officer Stewart in her mailbox. Even more surprising was the contents of the letter:

"I see from your bumper stickers and from your testimony that are a druid priest. I am not familiar with the Druids enough to make conversation. But I am ordained in the Baptist church. And for whatever reason, God is calling you to listen to words from the Baptists. This is clear! If you deny this, then you are pushing away the hand of God and that would not be wise. Too many events were manipulated by God to bring us together to be a coincidence. Actually, I only police every 2nd Friday night, so just being on duty was rare." (Officer Tony Stewart's letter to the Gainey's)

Pagans United and the South Eastern region of the Pagan Unity Campaign, in a joint motion, would like to remind Officer Stewart that his job as a police officer is not to seek converts to his religion but to serve and protect. Officer Stewart did neither of those things when he willingly engaged in ignoring the First Amendment rights of Tony and Debra Gainey by witnessing to them repeatedly.

We would further like to remind the Greer, South Carolina police department that it is their duty to ensure that complaints from citizens are answered in a prompt and professional matter.
It has been 2 months since the original incident occurred and the Gainey's have yet to receive the evidence they requested, a reason for being pulled over, a reason for Tony's arrest, nor the complete cooperation of the Greer police department into investigating Officer Tony Stewart's behavior.

We encourage you to take a stand against religious discrimination by demanding an apology to the Gainey's from the Greer, South Carolina Police Department. We further encourage you to call, write, email and fax your media outlets and tell them Tony and Debra Gainey's story. It is imperative that the Greer P.D. know that the American citizens will not tolerate such behavior against persons of ANY faith.

To lend your support please contact:
Debra Gainey (emeraldsanctuary@yahoo.com)
Fallon Glenn (tennessee_puc@yahoo.com)
Laura Wandrie (lauranewage@aol.com)

(Feel free to send the following letter to your media outlets:)

ATTN: ________ (Editors name here)

Sometimes police officers go to extremes and the rights of citizens are trampled. I recently learned of just such a situation in Greer, South Carolina and wanted to tell you about it.
On June 10, 2005 a Druid couple, Debra and Tony Gainey, were on their way home from Wal-Mart when they saw blue lights in their rear-view mirror. They immediately pulled to the side of the road, wondering why they had been pulled over. They were not speeding, and everything on the car was in order.

The were asked to step to the back of their car and complied. One of the officers, Officer Tony Stewart, then pointed out the bumper stickers on the back of the car and asked Rev. Gainey if they had come on the car or if they had placed the stickers there. Rev. Gainey told him the truth, that she and her husband had placed the stickers on the car.

They were then forced to listen to witnessing by Officer Stewart.Tony was never read his rights, they were never given a reason for being pulled over, yet Tony Gainey was arrested and Debra Gainey was "transported" and held for 2 hours. During this 2 hour period, they were again witnessed too by Officer Stewart and other officers did nothing. Tony Gainey never went before a judge for bond, the officers themselves set his bond.

Several days after the incident, they were surprised to receive a letter from Officer Stewart. Even more surprising, however, was what the letter contained.

"I see from your bumper stickers and from your testimony that are a druid priest. I am not familiar with the Druids enough to make conversation. But I am ordained in the Baptist church. And for whatever reason, God is calling you to listen to words from the Baptists. This is clear! If you deny this, then you are pushing away the hand of God and that would not be wise. Too many events were manipulated by God to bring us together to be a coincidence. Actually, I only police every 2nd Friday night, so just being on duty was rare." (Officer Tony Stewart's letter to the Gainey's)

As you can see, Officer Stewart over stepped his authority and the Gainey's are paying the price. They have reported the incident to the Greer police department to no avail. The evidence they have requested has not been released to them, they still have not been given a reason for the stop or for Tony's arrest. They have been blocked at every turn in demanding something be done about the actions of Officer Stewart.

This entire incident was uncalled for and the Greer police department, most especially Officer Stewart, should give the apology that the Gainey's have requested. Officers are meant to serve and protect, and as is obvious, Officer Stewart did neither of those things. Instead he chose to use his position to seek converts to his religion, ignoring the rights of the Gainey's in the process.

The Gainey's can be reached via email at: emeraldsanctuary@yahoo.com and by telephone at: 1-800-253-7011

I hope you will take the time to talk with the Gainey's about their story and report on it. Incidents like this are something the American people need to be aware of. Religious discrimination is wrong, plain and simple.

Brightest of Blessings,
____________ (sign your name)
____________ (email address or phone number)

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